Fido Droppings...

Joey playing Temporary Moderator

------------------------------------------------------------
(2618)  Mon 3 Feb 97 12:14
By: Bob Kohl
To: All
Re: R10COORD
St: 
------------------------------------------------------------
just as a conformation of what's what in this echo...


This echo is NC/NEC only, with the exception of the RC/REC. This echo is
manditory for the NC's.  If anyone thinks I'm kidding, don't.


I feel strongly that there needs to be a closed echo to discuss the issues at
hand. I do NOT want to see that this echo is being accessed by general
sysops...... and if you want to cross post something, please have the courtesy
to ask first.



                                      BK

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
(2672)  Mon 10 Feb 97 23:54
By: Bob Kohl
To: All
Re: A reminder so read me
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
Some of you are newer/newish NC's and/or NEC's.. don't be afraid to open up and
ask questions.. I generally don't bite and there's a heck of a lot of good help
here from some of the folks that have been around..


Hell, No one is perfect here.. so don't be shy.


Notes:

Question to all:

Does everyone want to keep it just one admin echo or would the NC's/NEC"s like
to have seperate echo's???

Adviso:

I'm probably going to cut the feed of COORD (NOT sysop) to George Peace.. *IF*
you know anyone that gets his feed from George.. please advise them to get
their feeds elsewhere.. This is a manditory feed for NC's in reg 10 and highly
suggested for NEC's.

                                     BK

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3256)  Wed 19 Mar 97  4:26
By: Bob Kohl
To: All
Re: READ ME / Warning
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
Folks,


I've been mulling this over for some time.. and I have mentioned it before..

I know this is going to be very unpopular but I feel the need to remove this
admin echo off the backbone. We have enough sites around Reg 10 so that picking
this echo up from 10/2 or Brenda via FTP or anywhere else in reg 10 via normal
feed shouldn't be a serious expense.


Please start making your arrangements. I will discuss the ways and wherefores
when this echo is off the BB.



                                BK

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3323)  Fri 21 Mar 97 18:20
By: Bob Kohl
To: All
Re: The COORD echo
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
Folks.. once again.. Next month I will be pulling this echo off the backbone..


There are several nodes that can be used for central distribtion to keep it in
the region.. via FTP or land line.

Several of the NC's connect here as it is.. I can easily pass it from here.

Whatever is most convenient for you.. however this echo will be coming off the
BB and it is where all the admin work gets done.



                                  BK

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3346)  Sun 23 Mar 97  2:28
By: Bob Kohl
To: All
Re: FTP feeds and COORD
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
Ok..

Instead of me posting the same thing several times.. *IF* you want to stay
strickly FTP.. then please coordinate with either Mike, Zorch of Brenda..

Those of you that have a land line connection with another net.. can coordinate
that way...


Let's get this on the ball.. I'd like this echo off the backbone by early next
month.


                                 BK

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3352)  Sun 23 Mar 97 20:33
By: brenda donovan
To: Bob Kohl
Re: FTP feeds and COORD
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
 > Ok..

 > Instead of me posting the same thing several times.. *IF*
 > you want to stay strickly FTP.. then please coordinate with
 > either Mike, Zorch of Brenda..

AFAIK, Mike doesn't have a 24/7 internet account... he has a ftp dialup to John
but that's all.  Others can't ftp into him that way unless he's up all the
time. They can dial in via a mailer and get them though... I don't know about
Zorch's feed...

Unless something has changed since I talked with Dave Hallford a couple of
hours ago... Mike isn't an ftphub :)

I can feed anyone in Region 10 via FTP since I'm up on the net 24/7 with 3
servers... full echomail feeds will cost similar to John and George though... I
only have a 128K bandwidth here so will have to plan in some staggered feeds...

If a net just wants the 2 R10 echos, those I won't charge for for now but if
any nets or sysops start getting their echomail feed from here the R10 echos
will be included in the whole package.

... it will all work itself out eventually.

Anyway, there is still some automation to work out ... I've got the feed
from John Souvestre completely automated now... shouldn't take much to automate
the rest...       :)


--- GEcho/32 1.20/Pro
 ! Origin: tnlhub - internet<>fidonet gateway  -=-   (1:202/777)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3397)  Tue 25 Mar 97 13:30
By: Bob Kohl
To: All
Re: let's get dangerous!
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
Well everyone seems to be responding well I'm happy to say.. nice to see the
region alive again! :)


Well since this is moving so well.. I'd like to shoot for the first week in
April to disconnect the BB from this echo.



                                       BK

--- DB A3000sl/001347
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------------------------------------------------------------
 OOPS! Here comes Joey! Took him how long to wake up?
------------------------------------------------------------
(3506)  Fri 4 Apr 97  2:21
By: Joe Jared
To: Bob Kohl
Re: Fixing what aint broke...
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
The removal of r10coord from backbone access is a fiasco.  I am not going to go
through any extra lengths to setup a special connection for this echo, and nor
can you require me to.  As a matter of fact, you cannot even as RC force me to
receive mail which I have not agreed to, _per policy_.  Accessing r10coord via
the backbone is the most convienient method of transport, and of course
paranoia has once again run amok.  There is no security problem, nor is there
any other kind of problem that justifies thic change.  If Mark is willing to
automate the process, that is
entirely his choice.  I'd just as soon drop out of fidonet as deal
with it, due to the fact that _I_ have a life.

--- InterMail 2.29
 ! Origin: Me? Organized?, Fullerton CA, U.S.A. (1:103/301)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3518)  Sat 5 Apr 97  4:04
By: Bob Kohl
To: Joe Jared
Re: Fixing what aint broke...
St: 
------------------------------------------------------------
> to go through any extra lengths to setup a special connection for this
> echo, and nor can you require me to.

That's true enough.. however I'm also not going to update the admin info via
netmail. *If* you take yourself out of the admin loop,  this can develop
into a problem.

>  As a matter of fact, you cannot
> even as RC force me to receive mail which I have not agreed to, _per
> policy_.

As the host??  I don't think so. Inbound host routed netmail?


> Accessing r10coord via the backbone is the most convienient
> method of transport, and of course paranoia has once again run amok.
> There is no security problem, nor is there any other kind of problem that
> justifies thic change.

*If* and when you become aware of all the facts involved, then I'd certainly be
willing to take your input into account.


>   If Mark is willing to automate the process, that is
> entirely his choice.


Fine, I'll take it up with him.



                                    BK

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3532)  Sun 6 Apr 97 12:36
By: Joe Jared
To: Bob Kohl
Re: Fixing what aint broke...
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
 > >  As a matter of fact, you cannot
 > > even as RC force me to receive mail which I have not
 > agreed to, _per
 > > policy_.
 >
 > As the host??  I don't think so. Inbound host routed
 > netmail?

As NC I have agreed to route inbound netmail.  I have not however, agreed to
incur additional costs in receiving this conference.  If it's official, it must
be netmail.

 > *If* and when you become aware of all the facts involved,
 > then I'd certainly be willing to take your input into
 > account.

Enlighten us.  I only saw one problem, which was quickly resolved in netmail.
This seems more like a control issue than anything else.  When you're
interested in resolving real problems, I'll take your opinion into account.

--- InterMail 2.29
 ! Origin: Me? Organized?, Fullerton CA, U.S.A. (1:103/301)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3545)  Mon 7 Apr 97 14:45
By: Bob Kohl
To: Joe Jared
Re: Fixing what aint broke...
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
>> >  As a matter of fact, you cannot
>> > even as RC force me to receive mail which I have not
>> agreed to, _per
>> > policy_.
>>
>> As the host??  I don't think so. Inbound host routed
>> netmail?

> As NC I have agreed to route inbound netmail.

There you go. :)


> I have not however, agreed
> to incur additional costs in receiving this conference.

That's your option.


> If it's  official, it must be netmail.


No, that's my option.


>> *If* and when you become aware of all the facts involved,
>> then I'd certainly be willing to take your input into
>> account.

> Enlighten us.


As noted more then once.. I'll explain it once this echo is off the backbone.



                                  BK

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3560)  Tue 8 Apr 97 17:02
By: Bob Kohl
To: All
Re: final warning
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
I've let this go longer then I've wanted to make sure that everyone could get
their feeds sorted out..

But, On or about the 21st of April .. this echo will be removed from the
Backbone. If you don't have your feeds set up.. let's get it done please.


                                    BK

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3570)  Wed 9 Apr 97 20:43
By: Joe Jared
To: Bob Kohl
Re: Fixing what aint broke...
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
 > > If it's  official, it must be netmail.
 >
 > No, that's my option.

No, that's required.  All official notices to me as NC must be in netmail.
Period.

 > > Enlighten us.
 >
 > As noted more then once.. I'll explain it once this echo is
 > off the backbone.

You might want to netmail a copy to me then, as I probably wont get it.

--- InterMail 2.29
 ! Origin: Me? Organized?, Fullerton CA, U.S.A. (1:103/301)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3578)  Thu 10 Apr 97  4:06
By: Bob Kohl
To: Joe Jared
Re: Fixing what aint broke...
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
>> > If it's  official, it must be netmail.
>>
>> No, that's my option.

> No, that's required.  All official notices to me as NC must be in
> netmail.  Period.


You're welcome to quote policy to me on this..



                                   BK

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3590)  Fri 11 Apr 97 13:01
By: Bob Kohl
To: Joe Jared
Re: Fixing what aint broke...
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
>> As noted more then once.. I'll explain it once this echo is
>> off the backbone.

> You might want to netmail a copy to me then, as I probably wont get it.

FYI, you have netmail on hold here since I can't get netmail to your system..


                                  BK

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3594)  Sat 12 Apr 97  5:33
By: Joe Jared
To: Bob Kohl
Re: Fixing what aint broke...
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
 > >> > If it's  official, it must be netmail.
 > >>
 > >> No, that's my option.
 >
 > > No, that's required.  All official notices to me as NC must be
 > in> netmail.  Period.
 >
 >
 > You're welcome to quote policy to me on this..

Gee... haven't had to quote policy in years.

2.1.10  Observing Mail Events

Failure to observe the proper mail events is grounds for any node to be dropped
from FidoNet without notice
(since notice is generally given by netmail).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

2.1.7  Not Routing Mail

You are not required to route traffic if you have not agreed to do so.  You are
not obligated to route traffic for all if you route it for
any, unless you hold a Network Coordinator or Hub Coordinator position.
Routing traffic through a node not obligated to perform routing without the
permission of that node may be annoying behavior.  This includes unsolicited
echomail.

If you do not forward a message when you previously agreed to perform such
routing, the message must be returned to the sysop of the
node at which it entered FidoNet with an explanation of why it was not
forwarded.
(It is not necessary to return messages which are addressed to a node which
is not in the current nodelist.)  Intentionally stopping an in-transit
message without following this procedure constitutes annoying behavior.  In the
case of a failure to forward traffic due to a technical problem, it does
not become annoying unless it persists after being pointed out to the sysop.

9.2  Problems with Another Sysop

If you are having problems with another sysop, you should first
try to work it out via netmail or voice conversation with the other sysop.

If this fails to resolve the problem, you should complain to your
Network Coordinator and the other sysop's Network Coordinator.  If one or
both of you is not in a network, then complain to the appropriate Regional
Coordinator. Should this fail to provide satisfaction, you have the right to
follow the  appeal process described in section 9.5.

   /
8-x------------------------
   \
Since I do not agree with the additional costs in receiving this echo I
therefore will not consider this conference official notice to me (Effective of
course when it is dropped from BB distribution).  You may claim it if you
chose, but knowing that I do not, or will not receive it means simply that you
must officially send all notices to me in netmail.

Additionally, I challenge you to address the _unresolved_ security issues of
this conference prior to its removal from BB distribution.

--- InterMail 2.29
 ! Origin: Me? Organized?, Fullerton CA, U.S.A. (1:103/301)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3599)  Sun 13 Apr 97 10:35
By: Joe Jared
To: Bob Kohl
Re: Fixing what aint broke...
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
 > >> As noted more then once.. I'll explain it once this echo
 > is>> off the backbone.
 >
 > > You might want to netmail a copy to me then, as I probably wont get it.
 >
 > FYI, you have netmail on hold here since I can't get
 > netmail to your system..

I noticed that too, and have netted you our session password, which was what
you requested that I setup.

--- InterMail 2.29
 ! Origin: Me? Organized?, Fullerton CA, U.S.A. (1:103/301)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3600)  Sun 13 Apr 97 21:13
By: Joe Jared
To: Bob Kohl
Re: Fixing what aint broke...
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
 > >> As noted more then once.. I'll explain it once this echo
 > is>> off the backbone.
 >
 > > You might want to netmail a copy to me then, as I probably wont get it.
 >
 > FYI, you have netmail on hold here since I can't get
 > netmail to your system..

I received your netmail, but there was still no valid explaination. This echo
for me is now a passthru echo to nowhere.  As I am not keeping messages in this
echo, please revert to netmail for all future posts, and do not consider me
officially notified of anything posted in this echo, unless of course, it is
done by netmail.  Effective the following message, I'm turning this comedy
channel off.

--- InterMail 2.29
 ! Origin: Me? Organized?, Fullerton CA, U.S.A. (1:103/301)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3601)  Sun 13 Apr 97 21:14
By: Joe Jared
To: All
Re: Fixing what aint broke...
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
 * Forwarded from "Netmail"
 * Originally from Bob Kohl
 * Originally dated 04-11-97 12:59

Joe,


I know you have personal issues pressuring you right now and I understand..

However you realise that it is no big deal to just pick it up or have the NEC
arrange to pick it up via landline or FTP from Brenda.


You've noted that I at one time knee jerked over an issue.. well in this case
I'd have to say the same. I am going to continue to take care of admin issues
in the COORD echo and not by netmail.


You of course can complain to Satti about this, but you do realise that
Satti has already seen several examples of net 103 stand on one issue.. and
also the fact the several of the other RC's have also pulled their regional
admin echo's for various reasons..

This really is a non-issue.. I hope you will calm down enough to see it as
such.  As noted, I'll be gone for a week.. so I won't be able to respond
until I get back.


                             BK

____________________________________________________________________________

> * Forwarded from 1:102/861, Conniption BBS in Los Angeles CA
> * Originally to Bob Kohl in the R10COORD echo.


>> > If it's  official, it must be netmail.
>>
>> No, that's my option.

> No, that's required.  All official notices to me as NC must be in
> netmail.  Period.

>> > Enlighten us.
>>
>> As noted more then once.. I'll explain it once this echo is
>> off the backbone.

> You might want to netmail a copy to me then, as I probably wont get it.

> --- InterMail 2.29
> ! Origin: Me? Organized?, Fullerton CA, U.S.A. (1:103/301)
> SEEN!BY: 10/2 102/2 138 852 861 125/0 33 202/701 205/1701 206/0 207/0
> SEEN!BY: 213/213 218/907 219/300 270/101 280/1 345/0 396/1 2001/0

> * Forwarded by Bob Kohl on 1:102/861, Conniption BBS in Los Angeles CA

--- InterMail 2.29
 ! Origin: Me? Organized?, Fullerton CA, U.S.A. (1:103/301)
------------------------------------------------------------

COMMENT:

And yet another chapter begins in the story of Jared's fall from grace. The
question is becoming clearer by now exactly whose fault it was and what
happened. Reviewing the posts, the patience Kohl exhibited at that time is
surprising and his many attempts to try to work it out with Jared who never
wavered from his goal to become R10ResidentVillageIdiotAndHotHead.

------------------------------------------------------------
(3611)  Wed 16 Apr 97 12:49
By: Bob Kohl
To: Joe Jared
Re: Fixing what aint broke...
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
 >> >> > If it's  official, it must be netmail.
 >> >>
 >> >> No, that's my option.
 >>
 >> > No, that's required.  All official notices to me as NC must be
 >> in> netmail.  Period.
 >>
 >>
 >> You're welcome to quote policy to me on this..

 > Gee... haven't had to quote policy in years.

 > 2.1.10  Observing Mail Events

 > Failure to observe the proper mail events is grounds
 > for any node to be dropped from FidoNet without notice
 > (since notice is generally given by netmail).
 > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 > 2.1.7  Not Routing Mail

 > You are not required to route traffic if you have not
 > agreed to do so.  You are not obligated to route
 > traffic for all if you route it for
 > any, unless you hold a Network Coordinator or Hub
 > Coordinator position.
 > Routing traffic through a node not obligated to
 > perform routing without the
 > permission of that node may be annoying behavior.
 > This includes unsolicited
 > echomail.

 > If you do not forward a message when you previously
 > agreed to perform such  routing, the message must be
 > returned to the sysop of the
 > node at which it entered FidoNet with an explanation
 > of why it was not forwarded.
 > (It is not necessary to return messages which are
 > addressed to a node which
 > is not in the current nodelist.)  Intentionally
 > stopping an in-transit
 > message without following this procedure constitutes
 > annoying behavior.  In the
 > case of a failure to forward traffic due to a
 > technical problem, it does
 > not become annoying unless it persists after being
 > pointed out to the sysop.

 > 9.2  Problems with Another Sysop

 > If you are having problems with another sysop, you
 > should first
 > try to work it out via netmail or voice conversation
 > with the other sysop.

 > If this fails to resolve the problem, you should
 > complain to your
 > Network Coordinator and the other sysop's Network
 > Coordinator.  If one or
 > both of you is not in a network, then complain to the
 > appropriate Regional
 > Coordinator. Should this fail to provide satisfaction,
 > you have the right to
 > follow the  appeal process described in section 9.5.

 >    /
 > 8-x------------------------



None of which tells me that I as RC have to conduct regional business in
netmail.



 > Since I do not agree with the additional costs in
 > receiving this echo I therefore will not consider this
 > conference official notice to me (Effective of course
 > when it is dropped from BB distribution).  You may
 > claim it if you chose, but knowing that I do not, or
 > will not receive it means simply that you must
 > officially send all notices to me in netmail.


And I as RC do not intend to have an NC dictate to me on this issue. This will
get settled when I get home.


                              BK

--- FMail/Win32 1.22
 ! Origin: PRI Remote -=- (1:202/701.1)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3624)  Wed 23 Apr 97 15:52
By: Bob Kohl
To: All
Re: this echo
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
I'm back..

This echo will be removed from BB distribution shortly.


                                   BK

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3632)  Thu 24 Apr 97 19:51
By: Joe Jared
To: All
Re: NODELIST
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
 * Forwarded from "Netmail"
 * Originally from Bob Kohl
 * Originally dated 04-24-97 01:02

CC: Bob Satti

> cc: Mark Luetger, Bob Kohl

>> Here it is the 30 of march and the change I sent in two
>> weeks ago is still
>> not in the nodelist. Also with 100 also taking over the job
>> of 500 that
>> change needs to be made in the node list.


> According to what I'm seeing, the problem is upstream.  My system
> definately sent it to him, but only tried to once.  For this reason, I
> believe our RC is either not processing automatically, or the problem is
> upstream from him.


I gave every admin person at least 1 1/2 -2 weeks advance notice that this
would probably be missed last week since I was out of town. I posted this
warning at least 2-3 times in the coord echo. Typcially and in accordance
with Murphy.. the system will act up when I leave town.


On to another issue which tied into the above.. You've told me that you would
NOT pick up the R10COORD echo once it was pulled off the backbone. I'm
advising you that the COORD echo is manditory for the *C's in reg 10 since it
is the place used for all Admin notices and discussions. It has been ever
since I have been the RC, and it's a simple expedient for dealing with the
admin issues.  I am not going to send netmail everytime something comes up.


If you do not wish to pick it up then I'd suggest that you have an election
in net 103 and replace yourself. I'd prefer you stick around Joe but the
choice is yours.


                                    BK

--- InterMail 2.29
 ! Origin: Me? Organized?, Fullerton CA, U.S.A. (1:103/301)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3654)  Sun 27 Apr 97 23:49
By: Bob Kohl
To: All
Re: R10COORD echo.
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
Crossposted from netmail


CC: Ken Wilson, George Peace, John Souvestre, Bob Satti

Gentlemen,


On May 1st of this year (in three days), I'd like you to remove the R10COORD
echo from backbone distribution. All of reg 10 admin has had plenty of warning
and this echo will be restricted to local distribution only.


Thanks in advance.


                                BK
                     R10C and R10COORD moderator.

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3655)  Sun 27 Apr 97 23:49
By: Bob Kohl
To: Joe Jared
Re: NODELIST
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
> If you do not wish to pick it up then I'd suggest that you have an
> election in net 103 and replace yourself. I'd prefer you stick around Joe
> but the choice is yours.


Joe.. since this is no answer and COORD is coming off the backbone in 3 days,
your options are:

You can of course pick the echo up as I've noted and that will be the end of
it.

You don't pick the echo up and go ahead and replace yourself per the above.


You can completely ignore everything and if I do not hear back from you by Sun
after next. (May the 11th), I will apoint a new NC and have him hold an
election. You will of course be disqualified as a candidate.


This will also be sent netmail, so don't bother to crosspost it in here. Again,
I'd prefer to see you stay on..  but it's your option Joe.



                                   BK

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3666)  Tue 29 Apr 97 21:20
By: Joe Jared
To: Bob Kohl
Re: NODELIST
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
 * Forwarded from Joe Jared, 103/301
 * Originally to Bob Kohl
 * Originally dated 29 Apr 97  21:19:36

cc: Bob Kohl, Mark Luetger, Bob Satti

Also forwarded to R10Coord

 >  * Forwarded from 1:102/861, Conniption BBS in Los Angeles
 > CA
 >  * Originally to Joe Jared in the R10COORD echo.
 >
 > > If you do not wish to pick it up then I'd suggest that you have an
 > > election in net 103 and replace yourself. I'd prefer you stick
 > > around Joe
 > > but the choice is yours.
 >
 >
 > Joe.. since this is no answer and COORD is coming off the
 > backbone in 3 days,
 > your options are:
 >
 > You can of course pick the echo up as I've noted and that
 > will be the end of
 > it.
 >
 > You don't pick the echo up and go ahead and replace
 > yourself per the above.
 >
 >
 > You can completely ignore everything and if I do not hear
 > back from you by
 > Sun after next. (May the 11th), I will apoint a new NC and
 > have him hold an
 > election. You will of course be disqualified as a
 > candidate.
 >
 >
 > This will also be sent netmail, so don't bother to
 > crosspost it in here.
 > Again, I'd prefer to see you stay on..  but it's your
 > option Joe.


You are out of line.

Item 1:  I am available during ZMH, performing my clearly defined duties as NC.
(Per policy 4)

Item 2:  Policy clearly dictates that I do not in any position
have to receive mail which I have not previously agreed to.  (I do not agree to
incur additional expenses over mail that is about 75% BK rantings and 20% non-
BK rantings, without about 5% important information.  You didn't consider the
ramifications of such a change when you made it.

Item 3:  Although I am still receiving R10Coord, via 103/2 via the internet,
but not through your *dictated* channels, I EXPECT all official notices to be
received through netmail.

Item 4:  Policy clearly states that netmail is the generally accepted form of
official notices, and as such, your complaint has no merit.

Item 5:  I don't give a damn about anything related to fidonet other than the
fact that my nets nodelist gets updated automatically, and without tyranical
garbage that has gone on since you've been RC.  No leader is successful if he
makes mandates, unless they are ABSOLUTELY necessary, and especially in a
hobbiest organization.  This last time around, I didn't apply for a
node number, it was thrown at me, over my voice line.  As such,
you might also realize that I care nothing for political BS, only
letting my net run itself, which it does nicely without interference.
It seems to me that an election for RC is in order, so that we can replace
you with someone without a short person big ego problem.

--- InterMail 2.29
 ! Origin: Me? Organized?, Fullerton CA, U.S.A. (1:103/301)
------------------------------------------------------------

Jared finally files a PC and Kohl still tries to work it out.

------------------------------------------------------------
(3684)  Sun 4 May 97 19:48
By: Joe Jared
To: All NC's
Re: Official Policy complaint
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
 * Forwarded from Joe Jared, 103/301
 * Originally to Mark Luetger
 * Originally dated 04 May 97  19:45:46

cc: Bob Satti, Bob Kohl, Mark Luetger

Apparently, Bob Kohl has chosen to interfere with internal net matters, by
replacing me as NC.

Item 1:  No individual within this net has complained about my services as NC.

Item 2: I as NC in no way am in violation of policy 4.

Item 3: Policy clearly dictates that no node should have to receive mail he has
not previously agreed to, nor at his expense. Being NC I have to route inbound
netmail, but nothing else is explicitly defined or clearly defined as required.

Item 4:  Bob Kohl is clearly not the kind of RC that region 10 needs.  He has
replaced several NC's under the guise of getting the net organized.  I am sure
that before these NC's were removed, a good majority of them were doing their
job just fine.

--- InterMail 2.29
 ! Origin: Me? Organized?, Fullerton CA, U.S.A. (1:103/301)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3695)  Tue 6 May 97  3:28
By: Bob Kohl
To: Joe Jared
Re: NODELIST
St:
------------------------------------------------------------

CC: Bob Satti


Crossposted to COORD.



Joe, as I've noted.... you and I have exchanged posts in the past and from what
I know of your track record, I'd have to say it probably a waste of time to
answer this.. but I WILL try it one more time.



> cc: Bob Kohl, Mark Luetger, Bob Satti

> Also forwarded to R10Coord

>> Joe.. since this is no answer and COORD is coming off the
>> backbone in 3 days, your options are:
>>
>> You can of course pick the echo up as I've noted and that
>> will be the end of it.
>>
>> You don't pick the echo up and go ahead and replace
>> yourself per the above.
>>
>>
>> You can completely ignore everything and if I do not hear
>> back from you by Sun after next. (May the 11th), I will apoint a
>> new NC 
>> and have him hold an election. You will of course be disqualified 
>> as a
>> candidate.
>>
>>
>> This will also be sent netmail, so don't bother to crosspost it in here.
>> Again, I'd prefer to see you stay on.. but it's your option Joe.


> You are out of line.

No, I happen to be the RC.


> Item 1: I am available during ZMH, performing my clearly defined duties
> as NC. (Per policy 4)

Irrelvent.


> Item 2:  Policy clearly dictates that I do not in any position
> have to receive mail which I have not previously agreed to. > (I do not
> agree to incur additional expenses over mail that is about 75% BK
> rantings and 20% non-BK rantings, without about 5% important information.
> You didn't consider the ramifications of such a change when you made it.

Irrelvent. I know that your NEC started to set up an FTP feed from Brenda over
a week ago and then never followed through. No added expense since your feed
normally comes via FTP through your NEC.


> but not through your *dictated* channels, I EXPECT all official notices
> to be received through netmail.

Not your call to make Joe.


> Item 4:  Policy clearly states that netmail is the generally accepted
> form of official notices, and as such, your complaint has no merit.

What complaint?


> Item 5:  I don't give a damn about anything related to fidonet other than
> the fact that my nets nodelist gets updated automatically,

You've just notified us that you have no interest in anything to do with
Fidonet other then processing your segment. As such it means you do not wish to
hear any admin notices from me or the Z1C or RCC through the normal chain of
command. It means you have no wish to participate in the normal chain of
command in Fidonet as it exists.

This also runs contrary to your volunteering to find out about the new phone
stuff for the grey areas between net 102 and net 103 so that problem could be
resolved. You never followed up on it.


> tyranical garbage that has gone on since you've been RC.

Interesting enuendo.. :)

>  No leader is successful if he makes mandates, unless they are ABSOLUTELY
> necessary, and especially in a hobbiest organization.

The only mandate I've made as RC was the first one from day one:

1) Admin titles need to be active and take care of their duties (full note on
this to follow in COORD.


2) The COORD echo will be used for admin notices.

I knew that reg 10 had been atrophied for so long that was NOT a lot to ask
for, especially given the response to Jeff Reese's tirads. Two very simple
guidelines is NOT one heck of a lot, given what I know of other RC's.


> node number, it was thrown at me, over my voice line.  As such,
> you might also realize that I care nothing for political BS, only


No one has asked you to be involved at whatever it is that you think is
political BS. With the two exceptions above. Ignoring admin stuff from the Z1C/
RC is not taking care of your duties.



> It seems to me that an election for RC is in order, so that we can
> replace you with someone without a short person big ego problem.


Chuckle.. Well I'm not worried about my height or my ego.. or else I certainly
wouldn't allow free speech in the COORD echo..


However you have the problem that I've been asked twice to stay on as RC by the
Z1C.


Joe, time table stands. Pick up the echo through your NEC, replace yourself or
on the 11th I will step in.



                                   BK

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3696)  Tue 6 May 97  3:28
By: Bob Kohl
To: Joe Jared
Re: Official Policy complaint
St:
------------------------------------------------------------

CC: Bob Satti


Crossposted to COORD.


> cc: Bob Satti, Bob Kohl, Mark Luetger

> Apparently, Bob Kohl has chosen to interfere with internal net matters,
> by replacing me as NC.

Incorrect. You've been given three alternatives, one of which means you will
not be replaced.


> Item 1:  No individual within this net has complained about my services
> as NC.

Irrelevent.


> Item 2: I as NC in no way am in violation of policy 4.

Irrelvent.. especially given that you have stated that you have no interest in
your admin duties above and beyond processing the nodelist segment.


> Item 3: Policy clearly dictates that no node should have to receive mail
> he has not previously agreed to, nor at his expense. Being NC I have to
> route inbound netmail, but nothing else is explicitly defined or clearly
> defined as required.

As previously noted.  There would be no change in your current means of picking
up the COORD echo if your NEC followed through.


> Item 4:  Bob Kohl is clearly not the kind of RC that region 10 needs.  He
> has replaced several NC's under the guise of getting the net organized.
> I am sure that before these NC's were removed, a good majority of them
> were doing their job just fine.

Interesting inuendo Joe.. However you're nieve to think that an RC doesn't
discuss serious admin issues with the ZC and/or furnish him with copies of
relevent netmail, epecially when it comes to the first time I might have to
replace an active NC.

I really don't care about the inuendo, the PC, or anything else Joe. Simple
issue..  there are only two things I ask of my admin folks. The COORD echo is
one of the two. Pick it up, the whole matter comes to an end.


The choice is still yours. If you chose to ignore it, that's certainly your
business. Timetable stands.



                                      BK

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3704)  Tue 6 May 97  4:22
By: Bob Kohl
To: Joe Jared
Re: NODELIST
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
> Item 5:  I don't give a damn about anything related to fidonet other than
> the fact that my nets nodelist gets updated automatically, and without
> tyranical garbage that has gone on since you've been RC.  No leader is
> successful if he makes mandates, unless they are ABSOLUTELY necessary,
> and especially in a hobbiest organization. This last time around, I didn't

One last note on this Joe..


*IF* by some change I was anywhere near the tyrant you are trying to make me
out to be, then you'd have long since been gone without any alternatives for
staying on as NC 103. The single worst tyrant that region 10 has seen since it
was formed.. was Jeff Reese.

There would also be no free speech in COORD (which means your posts here
wouldn't have made it past the first refusal) and I certainly wouldn't ask for
feedback from the region on any issues. I'd vote my own interests and I would
have ignored the "U" Flag issue, since it really didn't concern me personally
one way or another.

However I do appreciate attempts at good spin doctoring.. ;)



                                     BK

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
(3756)  Sat 10 May 97 16:05
By: Bob Kohl
To: All
Re: this echo
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
Folks,


A moment to discuss the "why" that this echo was pulled from the Backbone.


It had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that someone in 103 was reading
and posted in this echo when they should not have even had access to it.

Key points:
1) When the 103 incident happened, I sent netmail to George about it. George
told me he was NOT feeding net 103. I knew this to be false. Yes I still have
that netmail. George seriously damaged my trust in him on this one.


2) At one time George's system WAS tossing restricted echo's out to his feeds.
It was brought to my attention by two people, not just Zorch.

It was also confirmed in a public echo by two other indepedent posters who were
reading and in at least one case was posting in another regions admin echo.

George was not watching things closely enough, second time my trust in George
was damaged.


3) The Southern Star. I've had a feeling for some time that John was reading
these admin echo's. John runs a fine system, but he likes to meddle. He's
slipped a time or two which further confirmed my beliefs. He also slipped even
farther recently in Z1_election which damn well confirmed it.

This is a regional admin echo. *IF* I had any inclination to let anyone outside
of the admin people in reg 10 read it. It would be to let the sysops get it on
a read only basis.

There you have the majority of the reason I pulled this echo off the BB. You'll
also note that several other regions have also done the same.



                                      BK

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
(4191)  Thu 19 Jun 97 14:07
By: Bob Kohl
To: All
Re: I'd retract it but...
St:
------------------------------------------------------------
Satti's response to Jared's PC.


                             BK


> Copied (from: Mail-2) by Bob Satti using timEd.

> CC: Kohl

> Joe Jared wrote in a message to Bob Satti:

> The following part of your complaint seems to sum up most of your other
> comments about Bob, so I'll deal with your complaint by jumping off from
> the following.

> JJ> but feel someone other than Bob would easily do a better job

> I respect your opinion, but I don't share it. Bob has done a 'better
> job' than previous admin's in R10, simply by being involved. I don't get
> many complaints about Bob, in fact hardly any.

> JJ> and it has been 2 years since the RC's hat has gone to someone else.

> This doesn't form the basis for a policy complaint.

> Joe. Don't get me wrong here. I do appreciate the fact that you and Bob
> don't see eye to eye. In Bob's defence, he kept me informed that he
> wasn't having an easy time dealing with you, and when he felt that he had
> tried to deal with the problems and things weren't improving he asked if
> replacing you was an option.

> I told him that if he couldn't work with you, that he had no choice but
> to replace you. That doesn't make me happy, and frankly it doesn't make
> Bob happy either, but those are the facts. If Bob was continually
> replacing NC's because he couldn't work with them, I might begin to get
> concerned about Bob, but that hasn't been the case.

> Bob is responsible for the smooth running of Region 10. If he can't
> accomplish that with you at the helm of net 103, then he has no choice
> but to replace you. Having said that, I saw both sides of the mail over
> the issue that caused Bob to remove you as NC103. You point blank refused
> to do something, despite the fact that Bob had informed you he would
> remove you as NC if you didn't comply. You dug in your heels and got
> ready for battle.

> You indicated without any doubt (at least to me) that you weren't
> prepared to work with Bob, and under those conditions I understand why
> Bob felt he had to replace you. It saddens me that it has come to this,
> but it has, and you made it very clear that you would rather do battle
> with Bob than comply. At that point, the issue was no longer that Bob
> wanted you to comply with his wishes, but your reaction to his request,
> both in tone, and in substance.

> Based on the information available to me, I have no choice but to deny
> your complaint against Bob Kohl.

> ZC's, RC's and NC's have to work together as a team for things to run
> smoothly. If you can't work that way, maybe it's time for someone else to
> be at the helm of Net 103.

> Take Care

> Bob

> --- Squish v1.10
> ! Origin: Basic'ly Computers: Mooo-ing Right Along. Surrey BC (1:153/6)
> SEEN!BY: 1/101 200 13/13 102/861 114/20 142/928 153/6 9 104 290 715
> SEEN!BY: 163/99 170/400 402 4000 232/16 270/101 102 103 285/26 374/98
> SEEN!BY: 2613/404
> !PATH: 153/6 102/861

--- DB A3000sl/001347
 ! Origin: Conniption BBS * One fit at a time * (1:102/861)
------------------------------------------------------------
The End and Joey.... You LOSE!


Joey Jared for Net Obscurity.